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Released Games => Knytt Underground => Pre-release topics => Topic started by: Nifflas on July 15, 2012, 18:19:07

Title: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Nifflas on July 15, 2012, 18:19:07
Sooo...

I may try to fit this game into PEGI 12 for mild swearing and/or offensive language.

Here's the funny part. It allows words such as damn, hell, God, bloody, son of a bitch, sod, tart, crap, bugger, screw, arse, slag, slut, tosser, Christ, dickhead, bitch, shit, piss off, whore, arsehole, prick, bollocks, twat, bastard, wanker and shag. On the other hand, words like fuck, cunt, and motherfucker is not ok.

Kinda weird when you think about it, I can use whore and bitch, but not fuck. I wish it was the other way around, but those are the rules. Sex is apparantly worse than sexism. Oh, blasphemy isn't allowed either.

So, what I want to pull in this game is kind of what they did in the Dark Knight, but with language instead of violence (noticed how violent Dark Knight was without showing a drop of blood?). That is, make it as strong (though not racist or sexist) as possible yet fitting it into the "mild language" PEGI 12 rating.

The reason is that one of my characters absolutely needs it.

So, I'm looking for a way to replace my excessive use of "fuck" with... well, some creative use of language. Both kinda stuff that makes you go "oh my god, what is she saying?" but also just clever and funny phrases. Doesn't always have to be clever and funny though, sometimes the character is too upset to come up with something clever to say and just want to hurt people. I'm going to avoid harmless stuff like something captain haddock would say tho, otherwise the tone would be too "childreny" for the game. Got any great expressions to share?

Oh, and development is going mighty fine. The game world is massive, I'm perfectly on schedule, but it's a bit early for an exact release date.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: poland45 on July 15, 2012, 23:19:38
Is the good old irish "feck" allowed? :)
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Raicuparta on July 15, 2012, 23:32:27
Replacing "fuck" with "sod" works in pretty much every situation, but I guess it may not work for every character. Or you could even make up your own word, like the "frak" in Battlestar Galactica.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Nifflas on July 15, 2012, 23:50:03
I'm not sure I wanna make words up, it works a bit better when spoken than written. Sod is a bit tricky, in a situation where a character gets totally upset and want to scream out "FUUUUUUUUUCK!!!" it's kinda hard with "sod".

I think one way to go is combinations of things which results in a really horrible mental image. Like "wank artist" which I found at Urban Dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com). Could be a good insult.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: sergiocornaga on July 16, 2012, 06:37:28
I've always been a fan of "flip you, melon farmer" from the TV edit of Repo Man, though that might be too comical.

I once read of a newscaster getting into trouble for claiming a rival newscaster "takes it up the chutney".

Also, "shart" has the benefit of sounding really gross while not being widely recognized as a swearword.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: back seat astronaut on July 16, 2012, 09:42:39
How about playing around with the order of the letters, like "cucksocker" and "fothermucker"?
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Nifflas on July 16, 2012, 13:42:08
Yeah, maybe :)
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: LPChip on July 16, 2012, 16:16:57
Or do it how comics do it for young children. Since it will be written text, its probably not that hard to add images instead of text?

(http://mysticmedusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/phpiVKXWzPM.jpg)
This above example is plain text, but there are also images known with lightning bolts and skulls and bombs, indicating swearing.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Nifflas on July 16, 2012, 20:27:38
Either that's going to feel childish or like the stupid bleeping they do in TV shows. It's exactly what I'm not going for. As I said earlier, I'm not trying to tone anything down, I'm trying to push the offensiveness as far as I can possibly go within PEGI-12.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: SiamJai on July 17, 2012, 04:43:58
I think one way to go is combinations of things which results in a really horrible mental image.
Hmm, how about these:

Shitshaker, mothersucker, whore opener, sheep-shagger, wankmaster, pole-sharpener, mulepump, horse-extractor.

Combined:
Go to hell, you sheep-shaggin' wankmaster!
I'll rip you a new one, you dirty little shitshaker!

Snappy:
I've met the likes of you before, but I had to pay admission.
You look like you've grabbed more dicks than doorknobs.
If I ever made a game, the asshole character would be named after you.
I cuss only 'cause I can't punch you in the face.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Nifflas on July 17, 2012, 13:29:08
Haha :D I really like some of those!
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: PONTO on July 17, 2012, 20:54:40
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Dj Gopher on July 17, 2012, 23:23:45
The problem with fuck is that it is an extremely unique word that can be used as a noun, verb, adjective and an adverb; there aren't any other swear words I know of that behave like this. Shit works nicely as an adjective- shitty, a noun- shit, and a verb- shit. But what if "that guy is fucking fast?" It also implies a sort of annoyance in description- saying I have to write a fucking paper is a lot different than saying I have to write a god damned paper. Though said and done, I think shit and god damn would be the best and most used/accepted alternatives to fuck.

"What the shit?!"
"Ah mother-shit!"
I'll look through facebook and edit in some more later

It's kinda funny trying to genuinely and accurately describe something so... fucking silly :P
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Raicuparta on July 18, 2012, 01:13:24
The problem with fuck is that it is an extremely unique word that can be used as a noun, verb, adjective and an adverb; there aren't any other swear words I know of that behave like this. Shit works nicely as an adjective- shitty, a noun- shit, and a verb- shit. But what if "that guy is fucking fast?" It also implies a sort of annoyance in description- saying I have to write a fucking paper is a lot different than saying I have to write a god damned paper. Though said and done, I think shit and god damn would be the best and most used/accepted alternatives to fuck.

"What the shit?!"
"Ah mother-shit!"
I'll look through facebook and edit in some more later

It's kinda funny trying to genuinely and accurately describe something so... fucking silly :P
I've seen "sod" being used exactly the way "fuck" is used. For example, in Dragon Age: Origins, at least one character did that, "That sodding bastard", "What the sod is happening", stuff like that, although I'm not sure its being used correctly, it seems very uncommon.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Nifflas on July 18, 2012, 01:14:45
Yeah, that's what makes "fuck" so great. Of course I'll never find one word I can use as a substitute, which is why it's great to get as many various expressions and words as possible - that gives me better odds to find something that'll fit in each case. I'll probably use sod a bit, but I don't feel that it has the right tone to work as a substitute all the time.

Sometimes, unexpected things can be quite nice too.

"How are you doing?" "Anus."
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: LPChip on July 18, 2012, 09:16:01
Even very common words can be used as swear words, as long as you make sure that these words are normally not used at that location in a sentence. For best reference to their original word, it would work best if you can find a word that starts with the same letter as the swearword it is supposed to replace.

For example:

You're such a doorknob.
You doorknob, get out of my sight.
Are you fishing kidding me?
You fishing doorknob!
Oh fish! I'm such a doorknob! (you get the idea :))

In case you didn't find out: fish = fuck, doorknob = dick
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Nifflas on July 18, 2012, 14:06:09
There's still the problem though. It feels like a toned down version of the original word. This character would never town down her language.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: LPChip on July 18, 2012, 14:20:47
how about changing letters to similar sounding letters?

you phucking asswole. This is sjit.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Gorfinhofin on July 20, 2012, 05:33:18
You could take a page from the playbook of Sir Walter Beck and make liberal use of the word "balls".
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Nifflas on July 20, 2012, 20:51:47
Quote
how about changing letters to similar sounding letters?

you phucking asswole. This is sjit.
Substituting words with similar sounding ones isn't what I'm after. I need new ones.

Quote
You could take a page from the playbook of Sir Walter Beck and make liberal use of the word "balls".
Interesting :) A bit of googling revealed some really creative use of "balls" in phrases. I shouldn't just take 'em of course, but it can give me some nice inspiration.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Togeyosh on July 22, 2012, 03:09:29
Oh wow! Color me surprised! This is gonna be a first for one of your games, Nifflas. But I like the idea and how it can work out. It reminds me of this one shopkeeper you meet early on in La Mulana. She seems normal till you decide against buying something or don't have enough money for your selection. Then she cusses up a storm! It's hilarious!

Anyways, off the top of my head... Hmm, this is hard... Wasn't there a system in the game where characters would ask for your opinion on something and you could respond either positively or negatively to help those characters make decisions? What if this character thinks that's not a good idea and wants to shove that opinion down your throat?

"Hey! You're that dumbass everyone's been talking about, aren't you!? What, you think you can just strut around and solve every random little problem with a tiny pep talk?! Ugh... It's innocent, optimistic, idiotic little bitches like you that make this world too damned stupid to pick up after its own crap! You still wanna do me a favor? I've got a great one for you: GET THE HELL OUT OF MY SIGHT BEFORE I KICK YOUR ASS OUTTA HERE RIGHT NOW!!"

Could something like that work?
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: minmay on July 24, 2012, 00:08:13
Maybe the character, in addition to swearing a lot in general, could be fixated on a specific swear word and use it all the time, even occasionally in contexts where you wouldn't expect to hear it. Then you could use that word in at least some cases where you'd want to use "fuck" and can't think of an appropriate substitute. I've met some real people with this quirk.

I'm not sure I wanna make words up, it works a bit better when spoken than written. Sod is a bit tricky, in a situation where a character gets totally upset and want to scream out "FUUUUUUUUUCK!!!" it's kinda hard with "sod".
You can't exactly scream it but "Son of a bitch!" is nearly as common as "Fuck!" as a generic expression of frustration.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Grookie on July 25, 2012, 13:05:54
What about just some partial censorship, like there would be a black bar on the majority of word, but the significant part (to recognize it) would be visible. Also, you could put some simillar-looking characters under the bar, not to be "fuck" but "luck" for example, and show only the lower part of the word. Also, "Euck", and show the upper part.

Or just invent some swears in "knytt language", which could simply replace it. As strong as they could be, and use them in common phrases with "fuck" to be clear what it is.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Salmoneous on July 25, 2012, 16:47:04
Here's the funny part. It allows words such as damn, hell, God, bloody, son of a bitch, sod, tart, crap, bugger, screw, arse, slag, slut, tosser, Christ, dickhead, bitch, shit, piss off, whore, arsehole, prick, bollocks, twat, bastard, wanker and shag.

bitch, crap and shit. good, solid swear words. I totally agree with this. Take these words man and those censuring     dickheads (< pegi 12, it's ok) will just have to take it.   >)
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Dj Gopher on July 25, 2012, 22:12:31
Can you say "dafuq?"

That could be funny- some odd thing happens, "dafuq???"

Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: GrayFace on August 13, 2012, 16:07:21
My English doesn't allow me to say how stupid or good these ones I made sound, but here you go: brain-damaged piece of scum, craphead (or headcrap :)), shitload of shit, shit bug, cockless, "holy son of a bitch!"
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Mirror Sound on August 13, 2012, 18:07:28
Haha. It's amusing to find that Knytt Underground is gonna be PG-12 and have cursing in it. Can't wait for this. :p
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: GrayFace on August 13, 2012, 18:25:06
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSEYXWmEse8&feature=related
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Nifflas on August 17, 2012, 23:19:40
Oh, by the way, I'm keeping the desktop versions pegi-16
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Raicuparta on August 17, 2012, 23:25:34
Does that mean those versions will have stronger profanity?  O_o
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Nifflas on August 18, 2012, 00:50:14
Yeah. Age restrictions is less of a problem on desktops.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Santicol on August 19, 2012, 17:40:15
Oh, This is sad, I wanted to get the game so much, but the use of swearwords of course doesn't allow me to play the game. (I am 11 years old... 1 year more...)  X)
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Nifflas on August 30, 2012, 02:18:54
Oh, ask her to buy it through the website, it won't mention the language since I'm not legally enforced to put that information on my website (I only really care for them when a content delivery system has specific requirements). Often people worry too much about words like "fuck" and "shit" but have no problem with things that are much worse such as sexism and gender stereotypes. From a moral point of view, this game is great. Kids should definitely play this.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Yoeri on August 30, 2012, 04:12:34
...You're saying this game is great because profanity isn't as bad as discrimination?
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Klämrisk on August 30, 2012, 06:24:50
I say Nifflas has a good point there.  :)
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: LPChip on August 30, 2012, 09:24:36
...You're saying this game is great because profanity isn't as bad as discrimination?

Or because many people (me included) tell him. ;)
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: sergiocornaga on August 30, 2012, 09:58:23
...You're saying this game is great because profanity isn't as bad as discrimination?

I think it's a decent argument.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Santicol on August 30, 2012, 22:18:25
Oh, ask her to buy it through the website, it won't mention the language since I'm not legally enforced to put that information on my website (I only really care for them when a content delivery system has specific requirements). Often people worry too much about words like "fuck" and "shit" but have no problem with things that are much worse such as sexism and gender stereotypes. From a moral point of view, this game is great. Kids should definitely play this.

Oh well, ok, I am mostly gonna get the game, you see, my favorite series of games you created is Knytt, so I'll do my best to get the game. Knytt rocks!
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Nifflas on August 31, 2012, 13:07:14
...You're saying this game is great because profanity isn't as bad as discrimination?
Yep. Profanity is generally something completely harmless that people worry way too much about. Why would anyone under 16 take any kind of damage from hearing the word "fuck?" On the other hand, the gender roles and indifferences most of the society seems to embrace, presented in media all the time... that stuff does some proper damage. I was really depressed at GamesCom for that reason, the game industry is really behind there, I can't believe how many sexist games that would be within my field of view at any given point.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Widget on September 01, 2012, 03:30:11
Yeah, sexism is depressingly well entrenched in the AAA games industry. They'd be pilloried for encouraging racist view and behaviour, but sexism is a-okay for some reason.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Raicuparta on September 01, 2012, 11:42:25
I was really depressed at GamesCom for that reason, the game industry is really behind there, I can't believe how many sexist games that would be within my field of view at any given point.
And "booth babes".
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Zelakon on September 01, 2012, 14:11:51
NAH, it's precisely those booth babes that keep my enthusiasm driven at some games conventions.

<3
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: GrayFace on September 01, 2012, 18:09:56
I don't pay much attention to new AAA games, but I don't notice sexism. Sure, there's some degree of sexism even in "booth babes", but I mean I don't recall any sexism that could be considered dangerous.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Raicuparta on September 01, 2012, 19:32:13
I think he means dangerous in a more long term way, that is the kids growing up seeing women being objectified and so on.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: sergiocornaga on September 02, 2012, 12:55:45
I don't pay much attention to new AAA games, but I don't notice sexism. Sure, there's some degree of sexism even in "booth babes", but I mean I don't recall any sexism that could be considered dangerous.

First, a warning that this post and the links within it discuss sensitive issues, contain coarse language, or may upset you in other ways.

Sexism is quite pervasive in both the industry and culture of video games. It is bad enough that a woman wanting to create a series of free videos exploring sexism in video games (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games) was met with hundreds of threats of rape and other violence (http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/06/harassment-misogyny-and-silencing-on-youtube/). A good example of sexism in AAA games is the trailer for Hitman: Absolution, which positively presents a man killing a group of hybrid nun/dominatrix/assassins. You can view it here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKlEjPMXC1I), or read one of the many pieces criticising it here (http://critdamage.blogspot.co.nz/2012/05/quit-pretending-there-isnt-videogame.html). That piece also brings up rape culture with regards to gaming culture, something you can read more about here. (http://fozmeadows.tumblr.com/post/24890426643/rape-culture-in-gaming) Sexism also manifests in slightly subtler ways, such as a developer of Borderlands 2 casually referring to an easier mode within the game as "girlfriend mode" (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2012/aug/14/borderlands-2-girlfriend-mode). I don't know if these are the best examples... there's so much out there it's hard to know where to start. I hope they prove educational.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: GrayFace on September 02, 2012, 21:01:19
Thanks for the links.

Sexism is quite pervasive in both the industry and culture of video games. It is bad enough that a woman wanting to create a series of free videos exploring sexism in video games (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games) was met with hundreds of threats of rape and other violence (http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/06/harassment-misogyny-and-silencing-on-youtube/).
That's not a well representation of situation with sexism I think, the video got attention of trolls community and that's how ugly trolls are. For her they've been a huge help though. She got $150k thanks to them and when I searched "sexism" on google one of the first results I got was this video. BTW I liked YouTube comments on the screenshot, such as "Would be better if she filmed this in the kitchen" or "tits or gtfo", these are exactly the right responses to that boring video.

Edit: I've watched the video (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games) again, this time watched it whole and didn't find it that boring. Guess it seemed so boring because I was trying to find actual information about sexism and it didn't contain any, it was a video about videos about sexism.

A good example of sexism in AAA games is the trailer for Hitman: Absolution, which positively presents a man killing a group of hybrid nun/dominatrix/assassins. You can view it here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKlEjPMXC1I)
Yeah, that one looks disturbing, it's like killing kids, which became a complete taboo in games. Something that sensitive persons shouldn't see.
I don't quite get the "sexually arousing" argument applied to this trailer. Imagine if instead of the Charlie's Angels looking girls there were overweight or otherwise more down-to-earth nuns killed >) That would be a lot grosser!

Sexism also manifests in slightly subtler ways, such as a developer of Borderlands 2 casually referring to an easier mode within the game as "girlfriend mode" (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2012/aug/14/borderlands-2-girlfriend-mode).
A lot subtler I would say. It's a harmless joke. It seems some people just love to feel offended by everything, even by jokes like this.

That piece also brings up rape culture with regards to gaming culture, something you can read more about here. (http://fozmeadows.tumblr.com/post/24890426643/rape-culture-in-gaming)
I didn't read much into the article, but found out about Penny Arcade comic thanks to it. :)
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Nifflas on September 03, 2012, 01:49:14
One important thing is that sex and beauty isn't equal to sexism. I'm not the slightest bit opposed to neither sex, beauty, or nudity in games. The reason I find it a problem with the game industry is the way males and females are pretty much always portrayed. The stereotypes are extreme on both sides, and at GamesCom every male character seems to be some cool and dangerous guy with a massive gun or sword, while every female character who isn't in need of being rescued totally fails being a candidate for women fighters in reasonable amours (http://womenfighters.tumblr.com/).

Quote
A lot subtler I would say. It's a harmless joke. It seems some people just love to feel offended by everything, even by jokes like this.
It's one of a thousand variants of "what are you, a woman?" which suggests men are supposed to be stronger and better and that there is some kind of shame being thought of as feminine as a man. I've heard these jokes way too many times to wave it away as harmless, even though that's what they are meant to be. Also, when stereotypical male properties are assigned to females, it tend to be thought of as something positive. All this just suggests that male > female, and it's an idea that really needs to change.

Quote
That's not a well representation of situation with sexism I think, the video got attention of trolls community and that's how ugly trolls are.
It's just not Anita. Feminists who blogs or write for other medias are frequently attacked and threatened. I've followed a bunch of such stories myself. There seems to be a whole lot of males who take personal offense when inequality between genders is suggested to be a problem. I wonder why it's so touchy. And even if "they're just trolling", the fact that it's so frequent against women expressing feminist views... does that really make it any better?
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Yoeri on September 03, 2012, 03:25:51
I agree that the fact that sexism and other discrimination forms are so present in video games is absolutely terrible. However, I fail to see a connection to profanity or how exposing kids to profanity is going to change anything.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Widget on September 03, 2012, 03:53:10
The profanity in this game isn't supposed t "fix" the problem with sexism in the videogame industry. This is simply a tangential discussion that's popped up in the thread.

Not that I think it's a bad tangent to run off onto, just that it's not the point of having profanity in the game.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: SiamJai on September 03, 2012, 09:05:10
The tangent is the comparison of profanity to sexism in the gaming industry. As far as I'm concerned, both of them are equally damaging, ie. not the slightest bit. :P

Living in Asia, I see this current fascination with anything remotely 'sexist' in gaming as a uniquely western issue. Some of the most openly sexist, unapologetic games have come from the east, and yet this doesn't show any effect when it comes to actual real-world intolerance. Just today I saw women walking holding hands, men openly and casually dressing and behaving like the opposite sex, and muslim women following their tradition, covered from head to toe. All of these are normal everyday sightings anywhere in the country; no-one bats an eye or has second thoughts. How would they be treated in your country? From what I've heard and seen, they'd likely be banned, criticized or even attacked on sight.

Games have nothing to do with real-life intolerance and sexist attitudes, but they make easy scapegoats for cultures that are afraid to take a hard, honest self-critique to find the real root causes. Apologetic gaming insiders and opportunistic media folks are not helping either.

I just hope that this sexism fad will go out of fashion sooner than later, relegated to occasional flares like the 'guns in games omg' trope that comes up briefly whenever there is some gun-related crime. We're already pretty good at recognizing and telling others that Doom doesn't turn people into serial killers, yet we fail to recognize that Peach and bikini armor won't confine women into the kitchen.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Salmoneous on September 03, 2012, 09:24:19
One important thing is that sex and beauty isn't equal to sexism. I'm not the slightest bit opposed to neither sex, beauty, or nudity in games. The reason I find it a problem with the game industry is the way males and females are pretty much always portrayed.

I guess one reason is to keep to costumer knowing what to expect. Armour that's not Armour but steel bikini is something all gamers know is a thing. Therefor it's an accepted approach at putting more sexism into a game. People may pay more attention if they see boobs in a trailer or picture of an upcoming game. Sex appeal is one of the greatest tools in advertisement and marketing. It's a simple way to make more money and it's working. So it's ultimately only good for business to have sexism stereotypes in your game.

while every female character who isn't in need of being rescued totally fails being a candidate for women fighters in reasonable amours (http://womenfighters.tumblr.com/).

So you praise female characters that aren't sexist? Alex Vance from hl2, I find her character annoying. She's only appreciated because she don't put out and is a 'strong' female character. Isn't this exactly the same thing? You're making a stereotype out of something as a counter measurement to a stereotype. everyone has preconceptions, it doesn't mean everyone can't keep an open mind.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Widget on September 03, 2012, 11:35:43
Games have nothing to do with real-life intolerance and sexist attitudes, but they make easy scapegoats for cultures that are afraid to take a hard, honest self-critique to find the real root causes. Apologetic gaming insiders and opportunistic media folks are not helping either.

Games are a reflection of the cultural issues that are the underlying problem (as are many forms of media to a greater or lesser degree) and a part of the overwhelming barrage of negative images that perpetuate the issue down the generations. The big issue with games (in the west, at least) is that children are playing games targetted at adults and so the "harmless" sexism so prevalent in these games is one more very poor influence on these children's idea of "normal" gender roles.

The openly liberal attitude you describe seeing tells me you live in a city which will give you a skewed perspective. Cities are, almost by their nature, very cosmopolitan, liberal places; a melting pot of cultures and attitudes that's totally unlike rural or even suburban life. Added to that, is the fact that the damage done by these kinds of attitudes is rarely played out on the open streets; it's in the home, and in the bedroom where younger and younger women (girls, in fact) are being subjected to more and more violence and, though they rarely know to describe it as such, sexual assault.

I'm not saying games are entirely, or even predominantly, to blame for this problem in the UK (though I'm sure it's not just here it's happening) but it's one more form of media spouting the same damaged, and damaging, ideas. The problem is the sum of all the individual parts, but that doesn't make the part any less objectionable.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Nifflas on September 03, 2012, 12:12:43
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I agree that the fact that sexism and other discrimination forms are so present in video games is absolutely terrible. However, I fail to see a connection to profanity or how exposing kids to profanity is going to change anything.
My point was (well, from the start at least) just that people sometimes worry too much about the wrong things. Use the word "fuck" and the game is instantly forced into a PEGI-16 rating, but sexism may not affect the ratings at all. Then from there the topic shifted into being about sexism because... well, it's one of those topics that do tend to grow when it comes up X)

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So you praise female characters that aren't sexist? Alex Vance from hl2, I find her character annoying. She's only appreciated because she don't put out and is a 'strong' female character. Isn't this exactly the same thing? You're making a stereotype out of something as a counter measurement to a stereotype.
I didn't find her annoying at all. While it's true what you say with sometimes we fight stereotypes by making stereotypes, I didn't actually feel too much of that with her character just because she's "strong" or whatever. I thought of her as a likeable and well developed character.

Anyway, to somehow try to get back to KU, the game will actually do have a bit of sexism, but it'll not be presented as something positive. We'll see how it works out. The story is kinda weird in this game, I'm a bit afraid of releasing it ;) ...
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: GrayFace on September 03, 2012, 13:23:22
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A lot subtler I would say. It's a harmless joke. It seems some people just love to feel offended by everything, even by jokes like this.
It's one of a thousand variants of "what are you, a woman?" which suggests men are supposed to be stronger and better and that there is some kind of shame being thought of as feminine as a man. I've heard these jokes way too many times to wave it away as harmless, even though that's what they are meant to be. Also, when stereotypical male properties are assigned to females, it tend to be thought of as something positive. All this just suggests that male > female, and it's an idea that really needs to change.
If it was called "girl's mode", then yes, but "girlfriend's"? When I read it I pictured a situation when a man player gets his girlfriend into the game he plays, she would surely play worse. Men are more into computer games overall, so the situation is very believable.

It's just not Anita. Feminists who blogs or write for other medias are frequently attacked and threatened. I've followed a bunch of such stories myself. There seems to be a whole lot of males who take personal offense when inequality between genders is suggested to be a problem. I wonder why it's so touchy. And even if "they're just trolling", the fact that it's so frequent against women expressing feminist views... does that really make it any better?
I agree.

Just today I saw women walking holding hands, men openly and casually dressing and behaving like the opposite sex
These men would surely have problems in Russia, there's a lot of homophobia here. Yet, if these are normal everyday sightings, that's also a problem. It's another extreme that is wrong.

Alex Vance from hl2, I find her character annoying. She's only appreciated because she don't put out and is a 'strong' female character. Isn't this exactly the same thing? You're making a stereotype out of something as a counter measurement to a stereotype. everyone has preconceptions, it doesn't mean everyone can't keep an open mind.
I think she's cool. She didn't annoy me.
Valve has made an interesting character, while many others just copy, making stereotypical characters with cliche dialogs. Lack of imagination is the problem and Valve deserves a cookie for not having it.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: LPChip on September 03, 2012, 14:10:36
The story is kinda weird in this game, I'm a bit afraid of releasing it  ...
As I actually have some background info on this, let me be the one to tell you not to worry. I've seen worse stories do well. I bet most people will see it like I do, as if it was done to add a bit of comedy to the game, because thats basically what it does. You put it in such way in the game that it makes it an enjoyment rather than a serious story (which I think is a very good way to tell the story)
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Nifflas on September 03, 2012, 14:13:53
I hope it works. The game deals with things that are quite serious and personal, and I figure making something funny out of it that doesn't take itself too seriously is a nice approach.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: back seat astronaut on September 05, 2012, 01:53:59
It's great to see such a thoughtful discussion on a gaming forum, and I think it's a sign that the story in KU will be interesting and that the people playing it will be capable of appreciating it.  :)
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Dj Gopher on September 06, 2012, 01:15:28
I hope it works. The game deals with things that are quite serious and personal, and I figure making something funny out of it that doesn't take itself too seriously is a nice approach.
Good! I don't like when things are so over done and overly perfected that they become consumed by themselves.
Also, on that note, some fourth-wall-breaking-easter-eggs could be cool :)
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: vetebullen on September 06, 2012, 20:11:58
I hope it works. The game deals with things that are quite serious and personal, and I figure making something funny out of it that doesn't take itself too seriously is a nice approach.

Ooo nice! Being a little worried about releasing the game is sure to be a good sign, sometimes that's needed in order to take your stuff to the next level.

Ontopic I wouldn't see it as a problem that you can't use the word "fuck", it doesn't say a lot anyway. It's a bit hard to give tips when you don't know the situation. "Fuck" is boring but all-round, maybe you could try to use words more specific for the situation. That would probably give the dialogues more bite (is that a swedish expression, "mer bett"?). For example attacking the people she is cursing at their weak spots, or for general outbursts phrases like "Why do I have to spend my pitiful life in this god-forsaken hole!" (if the story takes place in a cave) (the word "hole" could be exchanged for "intestinal" for more drama)
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Pumpkinbot on October 10, 2012, 07:48:56
Just read this topic 'cause I just recently started lurking posting here again. I really like this idea, Nifflas, and I see where you're coming from 100%.

I'd say you should make up a Knytt language and incorporate that into the cursing. Though a fictional language usually ends up being kind of humorous. :P If you're going for that, then there you go. "You farping piece of shit!" "What the farp are you waiting for?!"

If you're not, then I'd say exchange words. "Fuck" is pretty versatile, but maybe exchange it with a verb cuss word when it's used as a verb, noun when it's a noun, etc, though, to be honest, I can't really think of a verb besides "screw you", which isn't anywhere near as strong. :P
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: wako-kun on October 29, 2012, 23:50:03
Ah. Profanities. How profane.
There are so many things I'd like to say on this topic, and luckily much of this has already been discussed in this thread, so I'll spare you some pain. The phobia of certain words seems to me like a very american phenomena, and I can't say I'm right or wrong here, but my personal opinion is that a word in it self can never be a bad thing. It's all about the context of the word. Now, of course, without this "taboo"-feeling and history, the words wouldn't have such a great impact, so I see that as a partially good thing.

Note: If this thread haven't melted your eyes yet, you are probably safe to open, but I won't promise anything, since I can be quite offensive sometimes. I tried to keep this to a clean level, at least.
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

I was going to write something smart to contribute to this whole debate on sexism too, but my brain and my fingers are out of fuel now. Good luck, and I'm looking forward to your new projects, as usual.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: kritter on November 02, 2012, 00:21:15
I always find excessive profanity (or pseudo-profanity or general negativity) annoying. I mean, why do we use profanity? To express negative feelings. Excess profanity = excess negativity (in my head) = depressing. To me it would detract from the game. End of opinion. 8)
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: kritter on November 02, 2012, 00:50:13
Random fact: Most of my female friends love to hear and tell sexist jokes that some females find offensive.
Totally unrelated fact: Most of my male friends love to hear and tell sexist jokes that some males find offensive.
The most important thing is to have respect. It's possible to tell sexist jokes (in moderation) and have respect (depending on the situation), and it's possible to religiously/politically/whateverally avoid sexist jokes and be disrespectful.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: wako-kun on November 02, 2012, 16:26:31
I always find excessive profanity (or pseudo-profanity or general negativity) annoying. I mean, why do we use profanity? To express negative feelings. Excess profanity = excess negativity (in my head) = depressing. To me it would detract from the game. End of opinion. 8)


While I get what you're saying, I'll have to disagree to some extent. Profanities just in sake of profanities can feel a bit stale or childish, But used in the right way, it can add realism to dialogues and writing in general. Most people swear from time to time. Sometimes unintentionally, and sometimes small everyday words injected into sentences. And even though swearing don't say much about a character, it can emphasize some minor quirks and tells us a bit about the attitude and background of the person, at least.
On the subject of negativity, I have to disagree as well, in the way that there is a huge gap between fiction and real life. I, for once, enjoyed Lord of the Rings, but I wouldn't like to be in that same situation as the characters in the book. In the same way, I can feel attached to certain characters in different fictions, but I wouldn't like them at all in real life.

I were going somewhere with this post, but I lost track somewhere. I agree with you to some extent, but in many cases, not so much. Note that I'm not trying to convert you, I just felt the need to express my feelings on the matter  :^^:
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: kritter on November 07, 2012, 02:24:12
Thanks for the reply. Please note I was only talking about excessive profanity. (Which certainly is a relative term.)
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: wako-kun on November 09, 2012, 14:08:39
Yeah. In some cases it feels more stiff and forced, rather than natural.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: metamorphosis on November 18, 2012, 06:32:50
I'm not sure I wanna make words up, it works a bit better when spoken than written. Sod is a bit tricky, in a situation where a character gets totally upset and want to scream out "FUUUUUUUUUCK!!!" it's kinda hard with "sod".

I personally find 'CRAAAAAAAAAAAP!!!' works well as a replacement, and is funnier to boot.
M@
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: LPChip on November 18, 2012, 09:23:57
Just a heads up, the game is already in such advanced stage that it will not be modified even if you have this brilliant idea.

These suggestions are for the PS Vita version of the game, and that version already has been locked for changes.
Title: Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
Post by: Nifflas on December 02, 2012, 02:30:15
Oh, and it's decided that the vita/ps3 versions are going to be PEGI-16. :)