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Temporary => Knytt Stories Level Releases => Topic started by: Vegetal Gibber on March 21, 2018, 15:01:39

Title: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: Vegetal Gibber on March 21, 2018, 15:01:39

(http://vegetal.eb-creativos.com/ksstuff/sshot/emerald_sanc_preview.png)

[ Download the level (http://knyttlevels.com/levels/Vegetal%20Gibber%20-%20Emerald%20Sanctuary.knytt.bin) ] (file size: ~6.1MB)

[ Mirror link (http://vegetal.eb-creativos.com/ksstuff/levels/Vegetal Gibber - Emerald Sanctuary.knytt.bin) ]

Juni is sometimes a bit too curious for her own good. She has just become trapped in what seems to be the ruins of an old underground sanctuary. Help her find the way back to the surface and maybe find whatever it's hidden there!

"Emerald Sanctuary" is just a short and very simple adventure I decided to make on a whim before resuming work in my larger projects. It's basically a classic straightforward KS challenge level with no gimmicks (only 3 COs this time :P2 ). It features ambient music by Fubaka and custom graphics by the Nifflas community (with a few contributions from me).

Playing in KS+ enables a tint filter that makes the graphics a bit shinier, whereas playing in normal KS (or other mods) results in somewhat darker but more saturated colors, so feel free to choose whichever KS version depending on your preferences!

Spoiler: Changelog (may contain spoilers) (click to show/hide)

• 1.04: Made some adjustments to the challenges at x1002y1002 and x1002y999, to make them a bit easier and (hopefully) minimize confusion at the beginning of the playthrough.
• 1.03: Fixed a few more SGEs, made some slight changes to x1002y1002 to avoid confusion and added a few detector blocks over the lever at x1003y1001.
• 1.02: Fixed a few SGEs and reclassified the level as "Hard" instead of "Normal".
• 1.01: Fixed a small pop sound when one of the BGM tracks looped.
• 1.00: Initial release.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Normal] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: LPChip on March 21, 2018, 18:20:41

Those last changes look great. :)

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Normal] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: Vegetal Gibber on March 21, 2018, 19:15:36

Thanks! I ended making a separate version of the main tileset for screens with waterfalls, giving the background tiles a more washed-out look while also trying to make them not clash too much with the original tiles (used in other screens).

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Normal] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: helvetzia on March 21, 2018, 21:39:08

Thank you for making another wonderful level, VG.  I had recently finished the quite enjoyable Next Gen Knytt DLC Pack, so I was super excited when your announcement came up since I especially love your challenge levels.  C)  Looks great, sounds great.  I couldn't find any flaws on my playthrough.  It may be short, but the challenge made it feel much bigger. 

It's not a [Normal] challenge, though.  Maybe if you're judging on the majority of the level, but if you assess based on the hardest part of the level--like the path to the umbrella--then this could even fall in the [Very Hard] range.  Secret or optional areas are usually assessed separately, of course. 

Even though you've made levels of almost every difficulty, is it tough for you to assess challenge when you're probably an expert player at this point?  It's possible that since the player-base has changed (fewer, more hardened players), level makers should alter their assessments accordingly.  Just a thought I had.

I looked at the editor to find how to unlock a secret.  I don't feel too guilty since I don't think I would have found it otherwise.   :/ But that's a secret, they're supposed to be hard to find or hard to get.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Normal] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: Vegetal Gibber on March 22, 2018, 00:57:15

Thanks for the feedback! Glad you enjoyed the level :D

Yeah, I think I got a bit carried away with some of the challenges, even though I didn't intend to make a hard level this time :oops:  Maybe it's because I still have The Dithered Temple on my mind. For the time being, I've reclassified it as "Hard", which probably fits the level better.

It's actually quite hard for me to correctly assess the difficulty level when I'm designing challenges, just as you said. The same goes for puzzles and secrets. As a designer, I want to give the players a fair chance to fully complete the game without them becoming too frustrated, but as a veteran KS player, I'm always tempted to make challenges that aren't too similar to what I've already experienced myself. It's hard to balance these two sides properly, which is why I usually ask other users to betatest my levels before releasing them (as opposed to what I did with this one :P ).

Spoiler: Regarding secrets (click to show/hide)

Out of curiosity, what was the secret that you had to look up in the editor? Was it the hidden entrance to the "garnet" (red) area? I was thinking of adding a couple more hints for that one (besides the detector blocks and the water drops from the ceiling falling through the fake white water).

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Normal] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: helvetzia on March 22, 2018, 04:52:15

After replaying the level, I think the fact that I gave up to look at the editor was more on me for not being observant or exploring a bit more than on you for not telegraphing the locations of things.

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

I gave up on finding the entrance to the garnet area after I tried the space next to it since I was looking for water that didn't move ala Remembrance and The Life Ruby.  Also, I just plain didn't notice that the spikey block had a "lever" CO above it that could be acted upon. You might want to put a "detect target" area there if you decide to update.  Or not.  People are smart.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Normal] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: sergiocornaga on March 22, 2018, 12:16:19

Exceptional level! I've now reached both endings. I definitely had a tough time at some points! The biggest hurdle for me was getting to the run power-up from the first save point. It took me ages to work out which of the rooms even contained a challenge I could overcome. When I did figure it out, it's still pretty hard to perform, it's a long trek to retry from the save point, and there's a 50/50 chance upon successfully overcoming the challenge that it won't even take you where you want to go! Symmetry is nice and all, but I think this might border on sadistic.

I also spotted some exceptionally minor SGEs in Scene2 of the ending: shadow tiles don't continue behind the 1-pixel gap at the edge of the wall tiles in about three places. Hopefully you still have those screens to edit, but if not, not the end of the world.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: Vegetal Gibber on March 22, 2018, 16:37:24

@Sergio: Thanks for the feedback! I think I know which room you're referring to :oops:  I've edited the screen a bit to (hopefully) prevent the player from spending too much time on the wrong path. This makes the room layout slightly less symmetrical, but I'm sure I'll learn to accept it eventually :P2  I've also fixed the SGEs you mentioned in the ending cutscenes (and a few other missing BG tiles in other screens).

@helvetzia: I added a couple detector blocks to the spot you mentioned. Thanks for the suggestion.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: sergiocornaga on March 23, 2018, 01:18:03

Yeah, that was the room! Still pretty hard, but that is the difficulty of the level now. Do you think x998y1000 could use some detector blocks too for consistency, or is that excessive? Also, I noticed that the level seems to only be updated on Dropbox, not your own website's download link.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: Vegetal Gibber on March 23, 2018, 01:51:07

That's weird... I always upload the file to both sites each time I make an update, and the date/time for the remote and the local files seemed to match. I've uploaded it again just now, just in case. Thanks for the heads up!

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

I also added the detector blocks you suggested while I was at it. I imagine the player will already know that's a lever by that point, but I suppose it won't hurt to make the experience a bit more consistent.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: egomassive on March 23, 2018, 12:25:03

Nice little level. It was difficult discerning which way to go, but I made it.

Spoiler: Feed back (click to show/hide)

When I noticed the second lever, I realized there were levers in the level so I spotted the first one. I found the Garnet ending first. I actually had to go back to the main level after reaching the blue key because I didn't have the umbrella yet.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: Fubaka on March 23, 2018, 15:59:18

This was a nice little level from you, and I'm not just sayin' that cause you used my music. :P

It took me a little while to realize there was a room to the left of the starting area, as I thought for some reason that the column there was a wall. I am a fan of the auxiliary shading that you added to the tileset. It makes it look a lot more professional.

Spoiler: Gameplay points (click to show/hide)

I found that generally speaking, the main challenges were tougher than the secret area. I don't know if that was your intention or not, but I personally would have had it the other way around. I can sympathize, as it is generally tougher to make a good challenge for players who have all the powerups than it is when you've restricted some of them.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: Talps on March 24, 2018, 13:54:35

That was fun.

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

And I have a big shiny gem now. 8D

Having tried to make a level based around the Emerald Cave tileset myself, I got the impression you'd run up against some of its shortcomings the same as I have - for example that it's so bright, it's difficult to use it for anything... atmospheric.

Spoiler: Off-topic, further assessment of the tileset (click to show/hide)

Other problems I had included that I messed up with one of my submissions (the big thick pillars ought to have had darker borders so that they can be used with the levers as doors or mobile platforms) and the background tiles are so complicated, taking up too many spaces on the set and layers in the level (especially since I was doing this in KS+ and using overlay on every screen).

On the whole though, I really enjoyed this. Short, pretty, sweet, a secret I could actually find (whilst still feeling cunning for doing so - I really liked the multiple steps thing). The challenges were mostly fun. I found the giant purple spider a bit tough but I might just be out of practice and uncoordinated. In fact, looking back, later challenges might have been harder and just didn't seem that way after I'd warmed up.

To be honest, I think I was lucky I didn't play this until you'd released a few more versions after the feedback above. Beta-testing is important!


This almost makes up for you making me wait another eight months for the NGK Boss Pack DLC maaaaaaan!

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: zhynna on March 24, 2018, 21:22:36

Good level. Thank you. I found the crystal ;-)

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: LPChip on March 24, 2018, 22:49:01

I had to give this level a try, but that was a big mistake. I am hopelessly stuck. I am a hard difficulty player, but anything I try seems impossible.

I'm very positive I explored every possible route I can go even though I only have seen about 6 screens so far, but every jump I can make always results in death, so I'm pretty sure they are impossible.

The level looks great though...

EDIT: okay, I got past where I was stuck by using the teleport cheat. It was where these 2 creatures bounce up and you have the jump pads.

Second time I had to cheat was after you get the eye, I can't possibly make the jump back. Definitely Very Hard. I'm sure if I try it for 3000 times, I may make it, but the game just runs so fast its really hard to time, so I just give up.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: Vegetal Gibber on March 25, 2018, 15:11:43

Glad you guys enjoyed the level :D I really appreciate the comments and feedback!

@ego:

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

Interesting, I didn't expect anyone getting the secret ending before the regular one. Perhaps I should've added one or two extra screens showing Juni running back to the first screen :P2

Did you have a hard time backtracking from the blue key screen or was it not that big of a deal? Since the level is pretty small, I wanted to give players some degree of freedom for exploration instead of telegraphing the intended path too much. It seems this can easily backfire, though, so I might make a few more minor changes to avoid potentially annoying situations.

@Fubaka: Apparently, I've become incapable of making a level without adding those shading tiles everywhere :P  I'll probably post the auxiliary tilesets in my "custom KS content" thread at some point, although I may try to fill up some of the unused space with additional tiles before I do that.

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

I didn't want to go too far with the challenges since I was originally aiming for a "Normal" (maybe leaning a bit towards Hard) difficulty level, even though I ended reclassifying it as "Hard" as helvetzia suggested. I did intend to make the challenges in the secret area a tad bit harder than the ones in the main level, but just enough to compensate for the fact that the player would have already collected all power-ups by that point. My ability to assess the difficulty in KS challenges may still be a bit off from my experience with TDT, especially its Lunatic area :oops:

@Talps: It's a very versatile and beautiful set, and I've actually been thinking of using it for quite a while. The only things I really missed were alternate colors for the walls (I always like mixing at least two different types of walls in my screens), which is part of the reason I made that auxiliar tileset. I did notice that the set was quite bright, so instead of trying to build a dark "forgotten cave/temple" area, I decided to go for the complete opposite and make a very shiny scenario to take advantage of that.

I probably should have held a quick betatesting round, especially for balancing out the difficulty and minimizing the pointless backtracking. I didn't do that because I wanted this to be a small project I could finish and release quickly. I'm going to need all the energy I can muster for those upcoming DLC packs 8)

@LPChip: Thanks for giving the level a try. Glad you enjoyed the aesthetics! It's a shame your first experience was that frustrating, it seems I definitely understimated the difficulty level here :/ Here are a few hints in case you're curious and want to give those challenges another shot:

Spoiler: First steps (click to show/hide)

There's a jump you can make in the screen with the springy plants and the green bouncers. It's a pretty precise jump, but you can reach the plant on the right if you jump from the white ledge.

Spoiler: Jump back after getting the Eye (click to show/hide)

The jump to come back after collecting the eye power up is rather difficult. You're supposed to grab the white wall next to the crystal and double-jump to the left side of the cyan "column" from that position. I may add a small ledge somewhere to make the jump a bit less precise, since I definitely didn't want to step into "Very Hard" territory with this one.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: LPChip on March 25, 2018, 16:29:35

I did manage to get on the jump pad only once and then still died, although it took me a very long time to realize that jump was actually possible. Once I realized that it was the route to go, and I knew I never was going to get this, I used cheats to get past.

With the eye jump, I figured I had to do that, but that is way outside of my skill level. Definitely Very Hard territory.

Those are the places I cheated. The rest had hard challenges, but were doable. I consider those to be Hard or lower.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: egomassive on March 25, 2018, 17:01:19

@VG: No, backtracking from there wasn't any harder than the rest of the level

Spoiler: Difficulty (click to show/hide)

Figuring out which way to go was the biggest challenge for me. The correct next step was almost never obvious and gave me a lot more play time than I probably should have gotten from this level. This sort of thing is a huge annoyance in a larger level, but here it felt like an intentional game mechanic. The eye was actually reachable without the double-jump, but I couldn't get back out again. Though it was a huge mislead, it didn't detract from the level for me. However, I have patience with your levels because I know you're a competent designer. I'd think players unfamiliar with you would see it as a flaw.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: Wibi on March 26, 2018, 03:55:38

Late to the hype but yeah this was a neat level. The beginning was a bit difficult, but after getting the run powerup it was pretty clear where I had to go. Found the

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

diamond ending

without cheating, then just didn't feel like getting the normal ending.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: Vegetal Gibber on March 26, 2018, 18:32:07

Wow, I didn't expect to get so much feedback on such a short level :O  Thank you all for the comments!

@LPChip: It seems the two jumps you mentioned are the main difficulty spikes here. I added a few extra ledges and made a few other minor adjustments so those jumps are still challenging without requiring as much precision, hopefully making the entire level fit into the "Hard" category.

@ego: I definitely see this as a huge problem in large or even medium levels, so I was a bit worried that this approach would not work very well even in a map this tiny. Still, I've made some (very) subtle changes to hopefully make the first steps a bit clearer, such as moving around a few save points and making the first doable challenge a bit more obvious.

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

I'm really curious about how the Eye can be reached without the double jump (with only the Run and the Climb powers). That one was certainly NOT intentional, but I can't for the life of me figure out how to reproduce it :S

@canteven: Glad you enjoyed it! You're not missing anything if you got that ending before the normal one, since the first is just an extension of the latter.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: egomassive on March 27, 2018, 07:48:56

@VG: I can't figure out what I did. After reinstalling the original release it's still a mystery. I can get to the room, but no further . I must have remembered it wrong. :/ By the way, the sound effects in the intro are nice.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: Purple Ink on March 28, 2018, 07:54:20

Wow great level! Really well put together and had some nice challenges. Some of the back-tracking felt a little annoying but it did give me more time to take in the nice graphics. Although, I'd say that for an average or inexperienced player this might be a "Very Hard" level. Especially the spider screen and that first spring jump.

Spoiler: secret stuff (click to show/hide)

I have to admit that I failed to find the secret. Didn't even realise there was one until reading some other comments. I know that was a mistake; it's a Knytt Stories level so I should have expected some kind of secret. Anyway, I missed the clues. There could be a couple reasons for this that I'll mention because it might be worth discussing.

Firstly, I've mentioned before I think but I'm colourblind. The secret glow is hard for me to see against the colour scheme of the level even when knowing it's there. It just kind of blends in for most of the area where the detector blocks are. I checked that wall but completely missed the glow. Now, this could be from colourblindness or maybe I wasn't paying enough attention. I have to admit I played this level simply to beat it (which is not how I normally play KS levels). So I didn't rechecked the wall. Would I have seen it had I checked again? Who knows.

Secondly, I did see the visual clue of the water drop falling through the water. However, I assumed this was simply due to a layering error. I guess that comes from own experience with the editor and how it works. A casual player who doesn't use the editor much might not think that. But I guess that's the real challenge: finding something that is discoverable for both newbie and veteran. Or maybe some secrets should be exclusive to veterans. Who knows.

Well maybe it was unnecessary to say all of that but that was my experience.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: Vegetal Gibber on April 04, 2018, 14:54:38

Thanks for the feedback, glad you enjoyed this small level! Yeah, it seems I misjudged the difficulty here, especially in the very first release. Guess that's what I get for skipping betatesting :P2

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Purple Ink on March 28, 2018, 07:54:20

Firstly, I've mentioned before I think but I'm colourblind. The secret glow is hard for me to see against the colour scheme of the level even when knowing it's there. It just kind of blends in for most of the area where the detector blocks are. I checked that wall but completely missed the glow. Now, this could be from colourblindness or maybe I wasn't paying enough attention. I have to admit I played this level simply to beat it (which is not how I normally play KS levels). So I didn't rechecked the wall. Would I have seen it had I checked again? Who knows.

I hadn't considered this possibility. It's hard to avoid that here because of the color scheme of the tileset I'm using, but I'll try to keep this in mind for future releases.

Quote from: Purple Ink on March 28, 2018, 07:54:20

Secondly, I did see the visual clue of the water drop falling through the water. However, I assumed this was simply due to a layering error. I guess that comes from own experience with the editor and how it works. A casual player who doesn't use the editor much might not think that. But I guess that's the real challenge: finding something that is discoverable for both newbie and veteran. Or maybe some secrets should be exclusive to veterans. Who knows.

I'm not a fan of the classic "check every corner for unmarked non-solid walls" approach in KS levels, so I try to get creative with secrets whenever possible. It doesn't work very well sometimes :oops:  I actually tried a different kind of visual hint for that secret at first (a slightly translucent white water tile), but it clashed too much with the "shiny" KS+ tint I'm using. When I made the tile barely visible in KS+, it looked way too obvious in regular KS, and when I made it barely visible in regular KS, it was completely invisible in KS+.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: BanderAnder on April 18, 2018, 18:02:50

Such a nice little level! The combination of that tileset, the music by Fubaka and your excellent design made it a perfect level to relax and wind down to :-)
Initially I was stumped, as others, about wich challenge to be able to make without the run powerup.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: Vegetal Gibber on April 19, 2018, 13:46:15

Thanks for the kind words, glad you enjoyed the level! :)  It's true that it can be somewhat disorienting at the start, though, which is why I tried to make the path to the Run power-up a bit easier to find/follow in the updates. I'll probably take a slightly different approach in future challenge/exploration levels to avoid this.

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: bernd on May 08, 2020, 16:47:29

Hi, I am currently playing the level and I know basically where I have to go.
but I just cant find a way to cross that one room 2 screens right of the umbrella.

this is a jump that basically requires the umbrella, yet you have to cross it in order to get it.

no idea how. there are no secret blocks or anthing ( i looked at that screen in the editor, so I can be sure)

Edit:Nevermind. I'm dumb :-)
I totally forgot about the hologram ability...

Title: Re: [Challenge/Scenic] [Hard] [Small] Emerald Sanctuary
Post by: pfrangip on May 09, 2020, 01:43:47

Just saw this at the top and played it for the first time. Love these little levels with custom tilesets, custom music, and a wide range of difficult challenges. I loved this tileset especially. Thanks for making this!